Vitual Law Q&A Transcript: Benjamin Duranske at SL Business Communicators Meeting

The time flew by, but this was one fascinating discussion, thanks to IP attorney, founder of the SL Bar Association, and Virtually Blind blogger, Benjamin Duranske, aka Benjamin Nobel.  We covered a wide range of topics related to activities in Second Life and Benjamin kept up amazingly well with the flood of questions. 

He promises to come back and meet with SL Business Communicators in a few months - and we're going to hold him to it!  Be sure to watch for announcements on his return.  It is well worth your time to join in.

Thank you, Ben, for a thoroughly enlightening session.   I encourage everyone to  read his blog regularly.

And thank you to Edelman who allowed us to use their island to meet this month.

The full transcript follows.  The "You" references are me,  Znetlady Isbell.

Introduction

[18:09]  You: Hello everyone. I think we can get started. Welcome back to Edelman Island. G24Khamr has been gracious enough to donate space for our meeting tonight.
[18:09]  You: He couldnt' be here - but we have Edelman to thank for the space.
[18:09]  You: We are really lucky to have Benjamin Duranske with us tonight. He is a RL intellectual property attorney, and the founder of the SL Bar Association.
[18:10]  You: He writes the unbelievably fascinating blog, Virtually Blind, http://virtuallyblind.com, and is here to talk about some interesting legal topics in virtual worlds - and answer your questions as well.
[18:10]  You: I prepared a few questions to get us started. Please feel free to ask your own as we go along, but let's try to not talk over each other too much in chat. I will be monitoring the chat to keep track of any questions we may have missed, so once you've asked a question, wait before asking again as I hope I'll be keeping track and make sure we get back to it in case we move past it.
[18:10]  Benjamin Noble smiles.
[18:11]  Benjamin Noble: Thanks, Znetlady.
[18:11]  You: Welcome Benjamin and thanks so much for taking the time to be with us!
[18:11]  You: Benjamin, how about if you start by telling us a little about how and why you got into SL and what interests you about the legal issues in virtual worlds.
[18:11]  Benjamin Noble nods. Thanks. I'm happy to get the chance to talk to your group. I actualy read the group's blog regularly.
[18:11]  You: We love SLBCers!
[18:12]  Benjamin Noble: Let me start with this: there are probably more questions than answers in "virtual law" right now. So I'm going to take a stab at whatever people want to ask, but there are a lot of holes in this picture.
[18:12]  Benjamin Noble: There are pending cases, and very few decisions. It's a fun time to be looking at these issues, and I'll make my best guesses. So let's take some questions -- I understand you have some already, to get the discussion started?
[18:13]  You: I do - unless someone is dying to start with something else.
[18:13]  Benjamin Noble: About me...
[18:13]  Benjamin Noble: I'm a real life lawyer, though I'm taking a break from practice and writing a novel (not related to virtual worlds).
[18:14]  Benjamin Noble: I practiced intellectual property law in San Francisco with Kirkland and Ellis for a few years before this break.
[18:14]  Benjamin Noble: Mostly patent, some copyright, trademark, etc.
[18:14]  Benjamin Noble: Folks can find me on the web under my real name, Benjamin Duranske.
[18:14]  Benjamin Noble: I'm licensed in CA, but live in Idaho. That's the nutshell.
[18:14]  Benjamin Noble: :)

IP Rights with SL Avatar Photos (Are Avatars People?)

[18:14]  You: Goldie is asking: What IP rights should we be aware of and get permissions for before shooting still or moving pictures?
[18:14]  Benjamin Noble nods.
[18:15]  Benjamin Noble: That's an easy area to be an artist in, actually.
[18:15]  Komuso Tokugawa: big issue in sl on that at the moment
[18:15]  Benjamin Noble: Your first sorce of restrictions is the terms of service for second life, more than any IP rights.
[18:16]  Benjamin Noble: But in terms of IP rights, people have some expectation of privacy as they go about their daily lives, but not all that much. So if you're writing a blog, or shooting a documentary, you're okay as long as people aren't identifiable.
[18:16]  Benjamin Noble: With celebrities, it's a little more complex.
[18:17]  Goldie Goodman: Are avatars people in that sense?
[18:17]  Benjamin Noble grins.
[18:17]  Benjamin Noble: Right to the million dollar question!
[18:17]  Goldie Goodman: Do avs have an expectation of privacy?
[18:17]  You: BTW, I will be posting this transcript so if someone wants to opt out be sure to tell me.
[18:18]  Benjamin Noble: If a real life person is already anonymized by the "mask" of an avatar, I think he or she would have a hard time arguing that a release was necessary to run a photo.
[18:18]  Komuso Tokugawa: what about uniquely identifiable avatars? [serious question] I had someone approach me recently about using photos of me in a sculpture and we are still talking
[18:18]  Goldie Goodman: It would help if Mr. Noble could hit return more often so we can ready what he is writing.
[18:18]  Benjamin Noble: Sure.
[18:18]  Benjamin Noble: Will do.
[18:18]  Benjamin Noble: Okay, unique avs.
[18:19]  Benjamin Noble: Komuso - is your private info public? In other words, do you make your real life identity known?
[18:19]  Komuso Tokugawa: yes
[18:19]  Benjamin Noble: Because my opinion (and it's just that, on this one)
[18:19]  Komuso Tokugawa: I'm both a live musician and business consultant
[18:19]  Komuso Tokugawa: have to
[18:19]  Benjamin Noble: is that courts aren't very close to calling avs people.
[18:19]  Benjamin Noble nods.
[18:19]  Goldie Goodman: yet. lol
[18:19]  Benjamin Noble: Then you have a stronger case.
[18:20]  Benjamin Noble: You have, I'd argue if I was your lawyer, the same right to privacy in your av as you do in pictures of yourself.
[18:20]  Da Etchegaray: Interesting Benjamin

IP and SL Objects (a picture of a picture)

[18:20]  Goldie Goodman: What about land and landscapes and buildings?
[18:20]  Benjamin Noble: Goldie - copyright, generally, will be what applies there.
[18:20]  Da Etchegaray: question
[18:20]  Goldie Goodman: Yes,.
[18:20]  Benjamin Noble: But I'm allowed, in real life, to take a picture of a building.
[18:20]  Benjamin Noble: (We're ignoring the TOS here, you know)
[18:20]  Goldie Goodman: But in SL, these aren't really buildings. They're graphic representations, aren't they?
[18:21]  Rocky Maddaloni: Soooo, do any of the SL TOS restrict photos & movies of either avs or buildings, landscapes, objects?
[18:21]  Benjamin Noble nods.
[18:21]  Benjamin Noble: That's the sticky thing. No decisions get close to deciding it, but if I had to guess, I think courts
[18:21]  Benjamin Noble: will view it more like a game.
[18:21]  Komuso Tokugawa: ty
[18:21]  Benjamin Noble: In other words, if Grand Theft Auto uses a famous building
[18:21]  Da Etchegaray: avatars may not be people, but sexually harassing avatars in a virtual workplace could get you in a heap of trouble.
[18:21]  Benjamin Noble: then they can be subject to copyright law.
[18:21]  Goldie Goodman: Linden Lab says we should ask permission from avs, but don't have to re landscapes.
[18:22]  Benjamin Noble: If you take a picture of one here, it's a picture of a picture, basically.
[18:22]  Goldie Goodman: But I don't agree w/LL on that one.
[18:22]  Benjamin Noble: Da - yes. Mostly due to the fact that courts will view sexual harassment in SL the same way they'd view it over any other chat client.
[18:22]  Goldie Goodman: Yes, the picture you're taking a picture of is someone else's copyrighted material, huh?
[18:23]  Goldie Goodman: Under the TOS?
[18:23]  Benjamin Noble: Exactly. So there's an argument that the picture is infringing the copyright (though in some contexts, fair use will protect you).

Is Second Life Real?

[18:23]  Benjamin Noble: Let me go back a tiny bit.
[18:23]  Benjamin Noble: All of these questions
[18:23]  Benjamin Noble: have at their root
[18:23]  Benjamin Noble: one big question.
[18:23]  Benjamin Noble: Is second life "real" in some sense?
[18:24]  Benjamin Noble: That's kind of the million dollar question of "virtual law."
[18:24]  You: Can there be celebrity avatars?
[18:24]  Goldie Goodman: One could argue that it's "real" when it transfers into RL, like a photo or video.
[18:24]  Benjamin Noble: In other words, is this just a pretty chat client, or is there something more to it, so building here are *really* buildings, legally. Land here is *really* land legally.
[18:24]  Benjamin Noble: True, Goldie. That's one good line. I could see courts adopting that.
[18:25]  Komuso Tokugawa: fair use is ok imo, it's when monsy comes into the equation from products developed with the images it gets sticky
[18:25]  Komuso Tokugawa: or stickier
[18:25]  Goldie Goodman: People have a misunderstanding about "fair use."
[18:25]  Goldie Goodman: Please explain fair use.
[18:25]  Komuso Tokugawa: true
[18:25]  Rocky Maddaloni: as we CPAs say - follow the money - if SL creates RL money, it sure starts to look real
[18:25]  Komuso Tokugawa: it's broad and grey .. lol
[18:25]  Siyu Suen: Yes, what exactly constitutes intellectual property when it comes to paraphrased or designs inspired by other designs?
[18:25]  Goldie Goodman: I like that line, Rocky.
[18:26]  Benjamin Noble: I think that this is how the courts will see it, at least for a while. It's just a communications tool. So it's going to be real laws applied to this, just like it's email or a web page or whatever.
[18:26]  You: Saeya asks: Ben, can you talk a little about the difference between IP and copyright in regards to second life? I mean how is it decided on what is a digital artisic expression and what is a tool or idea?
[18:26]  Rocky Maddaloni: thanks
[18:26]  You: That might be good background for all of us...
[18:26]  Goldie Goodman: So, if I copy someone's web page, that's a no-no. Likewise, if I take a pic of someone's build?
[18:26]  Benjamin Noble: Znetlady, that gets to my big picture question.
[18:26]  Benjamin Noble: And goldie's too.

IP versus Copyright

[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: "IP" is a catchall phrase, but it doesn't really mean anything.
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: There are discrete bodies of law.
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: Copyright.
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: Patent.
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: Trademark.
[18:27]  Saeya Nyanda: I understand copyright fairly well, but if I have a product that is a tool... and someone copies it and even uses the name of my product.. how do I protect myself?
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: Trade Secret.
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: Those make up "IP law"
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: So it depends on the product.
[18:27]  Benjamin Noble: Somebody here could get a patent on a new tool.
[18:28]  Benjamin Noble: Somebody could make a popular machinma movie (copyright).
[18:28]  Benjamin Noble: A brand could have a trademark.
[18:28]  Benjamin Noble: (e.g. Eros for Stroker's toys).
[18:28]  Saeya Nyanda: so basically trademarking and patents is about the only way?
[18:28]  Benjamin Noble: And someone could even have trade secrets (e.g. Darklife's code).
[18:29]  Benjamin Noble: Exactly, Saeya - there's no special rights to anything here that go beyond regular IP rights. Copyright, TM, that's what applies.
[18:29]  Saeya Nyanda: I guess though...
[18:29]  Benjamin Noble: TM, copyright, patents.
[18:29]  Saeya Nyanda: because it's digital, for me... it gets so grey because I consider most of what I make art even if its a tool
[18:29]  Benjamin Noble: And trade secrets, though that's kind of a different animal.
[18:29]  Saeya Nyanda: so i guess i'm unsure of where copyright ends in that regard
[18:29]  Benjamin Noble: My guess is that the courts won't see it that way.
[18:29]  Saeya Nyanda: definitely
[18:30]  Benjamin Noble: They already give patents on lots of different things that get executed in software.
[18:30]  Samson Francis: With the global reach of SL what country's laws will apply?
[18:30]  Komuso Tokugawa: oo..don't get started on software patents!
[18:30]  Komuso Tokugawa: lol
[18:30]  Saeya Nyanda: ty :)
[18:30]  Siyu Suen: How does intellectual property relate to the paraphrasing of another idea, a personal interpretation that is still recognizable as being inspired by something distinctive? Is it fair play as long as it's unique /enough/?

Which Law Applies in a Global Space?  Legally, View SL as a Communications Medium

[18:30]  Benjamin Noble: That's complex, Samson, but there's a whole body of law that covers that. I think it will be applied just like it is in the real world.
[18:30]  Samson's Time Is: CDT Dallas : 20:30
[18:30]  Benjamin Noble: Basically, here's what I tell lawyers in the Second Life Bar Association -- view this as pretty email from a legal perspective.
[18:31]  Benjamin Noble: The courts are not going to buy arguments that it's more than that for a very long time.
[18:31]  Goldie Goodman: How do you view email from a legal perspective?
[18:31]  You: Siyu asks:
[18:31]  You: How does intellectual property relate to the paraphrasing of another idea, a personal interpretation that is still recognizable as being inspired by something distinctive? Is it fair play as long as it's unique /enough/?
[18:31]  Benjamin Noble laughs.
[18:31]  Benjamin Noble: Like a fax machine. Like a letter.
[18:31]  Samson Francis: So then it sounds like it will be pretty difficult to protect builds and tools in SL
[18:31]  Stephen Psaltery: /em hands Goldie Legal Spectacles.
[18:32]  Goldie Goodman: ty
[18:32]  Benjamin Noble smiles. It's all just communication in the eyes of the law.
[18:32]  Benjamin Noble: Samson -
[18:32]  Benjamin Noble: I don't think it's going to be much harder
[18:32]  Benjamin Noble: than in the real world. Maybe easier, since there are software tools
[18:32]  Benjamin Noble: to help you enforce your IP rights.
[18:33]  Benjamin Noble: Okay. To the last Q. from Znetlady.

Fair Use versus Inspiration versus Copyright Infringement

[18:33]  Goldie Goodman: So, if I take a picture of Yankee Stadium in SL, do I need permission of the sim owner?
[18:33]  Benjamin Noble: Goldie - it depends on the context. I run stuff like that on my blog all the time, but I view it as fair use in the media (there are a lot of fair use exceptions).
[18:33]  Benjamin Noble: That
[18:33]  Benjamin Noble: is one of them.
[18:34]  Goldie Goodman: Under what terms of fair use? I'm doing it for profit.
[18:34]  JimmyJet Fossett: Good to hear that as I snap a pic, LOL!
[18:34]  Benjamin Noble nods. There just isn't an answer there.
[18:34]  Goldie Goodman: Isn't fair use mainly applied to educational use, news reporting, etc?
[18:35]  Samson Francis: So much of what is being built in SL is 'inspired' by others' work -- when does inspiration become an ownership issue?
[18:35]  Benjamin Noble: Samson (and this goes to Znetlady's Q. too) --
[18:35]  Benjamin Noble: It's a sliding scale, generally. Let's take a specific example.
[18:35]  Benjamin Noble: Somebody makes a dress in SL.
[18:36]  Benjamin Noble: (A) uses copybot to steal it.
[18:36]  Benjamin Noble: (B) makes one just like it on her own.
[18:36]  Benjamin Noble: A, if she admits it, is pretty clearly in violation of the designer
[18:36]  Benjamin Noble: designer's copyright. (if she doesn't admit it, but somebody can prove it, that's as good).
[18:37]  Saeya Nyanda: C.) uses a real world Versace picture and creates the dress based on that and no one on SL copies it (i wanna know this one too)
[18:37]  Benjamin Noble: B is *also* in violation of the copyright, and if she admits it, that's clear. If she doesn't admit it, then you get this complex trial to determine if it was copied.
[18:37]  Benjamin Noble: You have to show similarity and access.
[18:37]  Benjamin Noble: And it gets pretty complex (and expensive).
[18:37]  Siyu Suen: what about d), if she makes her own interpretation and adds or removes various aspects or enhances it to be a different creation, but similar?
[18:37]  Benjamin Noble: Okay - C.
[18:38]  Benjamin Noble: Versace has a case against C.
[18:38]  Goldie Goodman: OK, here's another take on it.
[18:38]  Stephen Psaltery: What's the difference between a dress in second life and a piece of software? They are both chunks of binary data. Are they both bound by the same sections of IP law?
[18:38]  Benjamin Noble: (assuming the design is distinct enough to merit protection -- also a big argument in a lot of cases like this)
[18:38]  Samson Francis: Animation is a key aspect of SL -- we all learn from looking at others scripts -- at what point does a script become an ownership issue?
[18:38]  Benjamin Noble: Let me take D, then Stephen
[18:38]  Goldie Goodman: I buy the dress that was an original creation, so now I own the dress in my inventory.
[18:39]  Goldie Goodman: Can I take a picture of it?
[18:39]  Komuso Tokugawa: What about someone recording an audio stream of a live music performance and trying to sell it? [sounds like a dumb q, but interested in answer]
[18:39]  Benjamin Noble: D - it comes down to how a jury feels. If the designer admits copying, it's pretty easy, but otherwise, it's a matter of interpretation. If it looks sufficiently similar and they can prove the designer had access, there's a case.
[18:40]  Benjamin Noble: Okay, to stephen's Q.
[18:40]  JimmyJet Fossett: None of these questions and points are dumb at all
[18:40]  Saeya Nyanda: ah okay
[18:40]  Siyu Suen: aaaaaah
[18:40]  Benjamin Noble: (THESE ARE GREAT Qs!)
[18:40]  Benjamin Noble: Stephen
[18:40]  Benjamin Noble: That is totally up in the air, to be honest.
[18:41]  Komuso Tokugawa: or any audio stream for that matter, not we are moving into voice
[18:41]  Stephen Psaltery: people talk about virtual dresses and real dresses like they are bound by the same type of law, and yet a piece of code is different? How is code different from a virtual dress? in both instances an image maintains all the data of the original.
[18:41]  Benjamin Noble: My best guess is that courts will view it as "art" generally as opposed to as a "dress" or a "barn" or whatever. They've done that in other cases with computer graphics.
[18:41]  Komuso Tokugawa: it's not just images
[18:41]  Stephen Psaltery: I mean, benjamin, shouldn't computer code be treated the same as a pretty picture?
[18:41]  Benjamin Noble: The best point of separation is this: you can only copyright something that is "fixed" in a medium.
[18:41]  Goldie Goodman: And I can't legally copy someone else's art in RL.
[18:42]  Benjamin Noble: So you can't really copyright a hairstyle (at least, that's the general theory).
[18:42]  Goldie Goodman: without their permission or under fair use.
[18:42]  Benjamin Noble: But in SL, a hairstyle IS fixed in a medium.
[18:42]  Benjamin Noble: I think that's going to be an issue that courts have to deal with.
[18:42]  Goldie Goodman: May I ask everyone in attendance...
[18:42]  Stephen Psaltery: so you can't copywrite code, because it can change, you'd have to patent it?

Will You Sue Me?

[18:42]  Goldie Goodman: if I shoot a film on your sim, and I'm being paid by a big corporate client,
[18:42]  Goldie Goodman: will you sue me?
[18:43]  Benjamin Noble: I'll answer that for most of you -- you won't, because it will cost too much.
[18:43]  Siyu Suen: (well i'd want to know about it and what it was being used for)
[18:43]  Goldie Goodman: rofl
[18:43]  Goldie Goodman: Exactly, Siyu.
[18:43]  Rocky Maddaloni: It depends on your use - if you profit from my work, I might want a share
[18:43]  Goldie Goodman: That's why I always ask permission before I shoot you. h aha
[18:43]  Benjamin Noble: We're not cheap. ;) But it is going to come up pretty soon when a commercial sim decides to push the issue.
[18:44]  Benjamin Noble: Shoot at the new Playboy sim if you're interested in testing the theory. ;)
[18:44]  Goldie Goodman: The other thing, Ben, is registering the copyright or getting the patent or trademark registered.

Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents and Registration

[18:44]  Goldie Goodman: If it's not registered before the infringement occurs, that can further limit chances of success on a lawsuit, right?
[18:44]  Benjamin Noble: Sure. Though I think that registration should be about the same for in-world brands, works of art, inventions, etc.
[18:44]  Rocky Maddaloni: How about RL contracts about SL - for instance - if I own an island and execute contracts in RL for land, buildings, etc - any issues ?
[18:44]  Benjamin Noble: That's true, Goldie, in a general sense. Depends somewhat on which branch of IP your talking about.
[18:45]  Benjamin Noble: Patent is all about having the patent.
[18:45]  Siyu Suen: patents and copy rights can only apply to single objects or designs that have been submitted though, right? otherwise we just have a sort of loosy goosy protection for all of our creations?
[18:45]  Benjamin Noble: Trademark is better to register, but it just speeds up the process of getting wide protection.
[18:45]  Benjamin Noble: Copyright is yours as soon as you create it.
[18:45]  Siyu Suen: oh!
[18:45]  Stephen Psaltery: Not to sound like I'm reiterating an issue, here, but as I understand it copywrite is inherent to a work of art, and does the same inherent legal protection extend to my work as a programmer? I apologize for my ignorance of IP law as a whole.
[18:45]  Benjamin Noble: Siyu - Patents are for specific inventions.
[18:45]  Benjamin Noble: Copyright is in artistic works, and applies, essentially, upon creation.
[18:45]  Siyu Suen: oh i thought you had to apply for a copyright (how nice!)
[18:46]  Goldie Goodman: But if you don't register the copyright, you can't get statutory damages and have to prove your loss.
[18:47]  Benjamin Noble: Stephen - that's right. Copyright is to the *expression* of an idea. You may have a copyright in code (e.g. HTML) that expresses something. But for the functionality of that code, what it does, you'd want a patent.
[18:47]  Benjamin Noble: That's why people say that even cars, for example, in SL are "copyright" protected rather than, as in real life, protected by a bunch of patents.
[18:48]  Benjamin Noble: It's the expression, visually, that matters for that protection. But if you figure out how to *make* a better car in SL, you're going to want to look beyond copyright.
[18:48]  Benjamin Noble: Goldie - that's right.
[18:48]  Stephen Psaltery: Ahh. That makes it clearer. So a copywrite protects people from exactly duplicating my code, but without a patent, they could reverse engineer it and write it themselves and it would be legal.
[18:48]  Benjamin Noble thinks he sees a potential copyright lawyer in the crowd.
[18:48]  Benjamin Noble: That's right.
[18:48]  Benjamin Noble: Here's one thing that matters - you an violate a patent without knowing it exists.
[18:49]  Benjamin Noble: That is, you can be held liable, have to pay money, for duplicating an invention even if you had no idea it was somebody else's invention.
[18:49]  Benjamin Noble: On the other hand, if I were to independently write exactly the same book as you, and could prove I'd never seen yours, I'm in the clear.
[18:49]  Goldie Goodman: If the other guy can afford to pay his lawyers to sue you, ha ha
[18:49]  Benjamin Noble: Because for copyright, you have to prove copying, or at least access and similarity ("constructive" copying).
[18:50]  Benjamin Noble: That's true. Patent litigation is really expensive.

SL M&A's, Contracts, Celebrities, and Audio Recordings

[18:50]  Cadence Juran: How about mergers & aquisitions? Specifically the intelectual property and assets of the company being aquired?
[18:50]  You: Rocky has a question on a little different topic:
[18:50]  Goldie Goodman: In filmmaking, it's pretty easy to prove you've made a copy. It's on the film!
[18:50]  Komuso Tokugawa: Could I ask about audio recording again, just to geta clarification
[18:51]  Benjamin Noble: Cadence - not sure what you're getting at, but I'd argue that SL assets are real assets that need to be transferred when a co. is bought or sold.
[18:51]  Benjamin Noble: Let's see... Znet, let's get the Rocky question, then I'll take Komuso's.
[18:51]  You: kay - How about RL contracts about SL - for instance - if I own an island and execute contracts in RL for land, buildings, etc - any issues ?
[18:52]  Goldie Goodman: Watch in the contract for the term "work for hire."
[18:52]  Komuso Tokugawa: ty
[18:52]  Lou Tones: Question Benjamin, Could you fore see a circumstance where an Avatar made to look like a living celebrity, could be used with attribution under "fair use" if the avatar were used in a news story or educaton piece as was not sold for profit?
[18:52]  Benjamin Noble: Some kinds of contracts require actual signatures, but generally, courts are going to view this as a commuications tool when it comes to contract. So again, pretend it's email or a fax or a phone call. The same law should apply, at least for th forseeable future.
[18:52]  Goldie Goodman: That means anything you create for your client, they own immediately -- not you.
[18:54]  Benjamin Noble: Lou - that's a tricky one due to something called the "right to publicity" that is strongest in California (it's a state-based right, there's no federal law on it). Search Virtually Blind -- I did a piece on it a few months back. There's a photo of a Cameron Diaz avatar there. But yeah, I feel okay running that photo, bc it's a news site. But not selling it.
[18:54]  Benjamin Noble: Okay, Komuso - what was your audio question?
[18:54]  Komuso Tokugawa: it was specific to music, but thought to I'd widen it to audio in genral now voice ios coming
[18:55]  Benjamin Noble nods.
[18:55]  Komuso Tokugawa: What are the limitations imposed on people for recording of live audio streams in sl
[18:56]  Benjamin Noble: Well, again, the TOS makes an attempt to limit all of that kind of thing, but I'll ignore that and focus on the IP question, since it's not at all clear that provision would be enforced right now.
[18:56]  Komuso Tokugawa: or virtual worlds in general actually
[18:56]  You: Saeya asks if you can touch a bit on employment issues in SL - what should companies be aware of, what about avatars with company last names operating in SL
[18:56]  Benjamin Noble: It's going to get more complex with voice, but let's look at it before.
[18:57]  Benjamin Noble: It's a case by case issue. If someone is giving a live concert, and doesn't give a general release, I think that the same law as would apply to a concert in central park would apply here.
[18:57]  Benjamin Noble: The artist *could* enforce a copyright (though most wouldn't).
[18:57]  Komuso Tokugawa: I have a published cc 3.0 nd-nc-attr on my website covering all live concerts I do btw
[18:58]  Komuso Tokugawa: do I need to highlight that more in sl when I play?
[18:58]  Benjamin Noble: As for chat, etc., you get into people's right to privacy, and my take is that the same law that prevents you from showing identifiable people without getting a release for a TV show is going to apply, IF they are identifiable in SL (hence, the "are avatars that are anonomized already okay to take pictures of?" question).
[18:59]  Benjamin Noble: I would, Komuso, at least say what rights you are and are not granting.
[18:59]  Komuso Tokugawa: kk..tyvm
[18:59]  Benjamin Noble: It will make enforcement easier later for you, if you have to.

Wrapping Up & Company Avatars

[18:59]  You: We are running up against an hour - do you have a few more minutes Ben?
[19:00]  Benjamin Noble smiles. Sure. Let's go another 10 or 15 or so. I don't want to keep people, and I'd be happy to "friend" anybody who wants to keep track of me.
[19:00]  You: Saeya has a question.
[19:00]  You: Saeye - now is your chance!!
[19:00]  Benjamin Noble nods.
[19:00]  Saeya Nyanda: Actually, it's fine... haha i answered my own question through thinking about it :P
[19:00]  Saeya Nyanda: someone else go ahead
[19:01]  Benjamin Noble: I'm sure I missed one or two back there...
[19:01]  Benjamin Noble: But I'd be happy to get caught up with anybody who I missed in private chat later too.
[19:01]  Goldie Goodman: With your meter running?
[19:01]  Benjamin Noble: Let's wrap up for now, and I can take any other questions personally.
[19:01]  You: I'm curious what companies need to be aware of with avatars operating under company last names.
[19:01]  Goldie Goodman: What's your hourly rate? ha ha
[19:01]  Benjamin Noble laughs.
[19:02]  Benjamin Noble: I don't practice in SL!
[19:02]  Sparkle Dale: [18:56] Znetlady Isbell: Saeya asks if you can touch a bit on employment issues in SL - what should companies be aware of, what about avatars with company last names operating in SL
[19:02]  Benjamin Noble: Sure.
[19:02]  JimmyJet Fossett: How many Linden's Ben??
[19:02]  Benjamin Noble: Ah, employment.
[19:02]  Benjamin Noble: Not my specialty, but I'll take a shot at it.
[19:03]  Benjamin Noble: Are you asking about avatars who inadvertently have company last names, or ones where the company has set up a presence?
[19:03]  Sparkle Dale: Saeya?
[19:03]  You: Ones; they have set up
[19:04]  Benjamin Noble: Okay. Well, it's going to be a matter of company policy what they can and can't do.
[19:04]  You: So companies should develop specific policies in SL?
[19:04]  Benjamin Noble: And there's no special rules for that. They're probably "representing" the company at least as much as if they had a blog on the company'
[19:04]  Benjamin Noble: company's site, and that's something that the company is certainly allowed to control the content of.
[19:05]  Benjamin Noble: I would, if I had a company here and gave my employees avatars with my corporate brand as their last name!
[19:05]  You: Does that means the company owns the avatar?
[19:05]  Maryrose Mariani: Yes, they should get a personal av for off time, I think.
[19:06]  Benjamin Noble: I'm not, as you might have guessed, really on the "avatars have rights" bandwagon, so yeah, from my perspective, the company owns it just as much as it owns your @company.com email address.
[19:06]  Komuso Tokugawa: I think that's avatards have rights...maybe;-)
[19:06]  You: Do we have one last question before we let poor Ben stop typing?
[19:07]  Benjamin Noble smiles. I think that you might have more than many, given your inextricable tie to your real life identity. But that's not to say the *avatar* itself does.
[19:07]  JimmyJet Fossett: Ben, what is a good way to stay atop all of this?
[19:07]  You: Well, let' us wrap then?
[19:07]  Amit Torok: Excellent topic. Thx
[19:07]  You: Thanks so much Ben.
[19:07]  Samson Francis: How do you see SL impacting the practice of law?
[19:07]  Benjamin Noble: JimmyJet - I'll plug my blog here. :)
[19:07]  Benjamin Noble: Thanks.
[19:07]  You: Please everyone go check out Ben'b blog Virtually Blind.
[19:07]  Benjamin Noble: http://www.virtuallyblind.com
[19:07]  You: hahaha
[19:07]  Goldie Goodman: Very interesting. Thank you.
[19:07]  Benjamin Noble: I actually think I'm the only person covering virtual law.
[19:07]  JimmyJet Fossett: Okay, great will check it out
[19:07]  Samson Francis: TY
[19:07]  You: This is great stuff, you will be hooked once you read it.
[19:08]  JimmyJet Fossett: Thanks
[19:08]  Komuso Tokugawa: tyvm ben
[19:08]  Jonas Ingrassia: TY Ben.
[19:08]  Benjamin Noble: I try to post a few times a week. Was on vacation recently, hence the light posting.
[19:08]  Komuso Tokugawa: very interesting and informative
[19:08]  You: Thank you. Please let us give Ben a big thanks and hand.
[19:08]  Siyu Suen: thank you so much Ben, this has been very very helpful
[19:08]  Mushroom Balut: great stuff, ty!
[19:08]  Siyu Suen applauds!
[19:08]  Benjamin Noble: Thanks so much, everybody. I really am happy to have gotten to talk to you. Those were *great* questions.
[19:08]  Benjamin Noble: Feel free to IM me if you want to talk further.
[19:08]  You: Please come back sometime??
[19:08]  Goldie Goodman: Great answers, too.
[19:08]  Benjamin Noble smiles.
[19:08]  Butch Dae: Thanks Benjamin
[19:08]  Benjamin Noble: Thanks again.
[19:09]  You: Thanks everyone for coming!!
[19:09]  You: I will post the transcript!
[19:09]  Benjamin Noble nods.
[19:09]  Benjamin Noble: O
[19:09]  Siyu Suen: thank you for holding this!
[19:09]  Goldie Goodman: Thank YOU, Znetlady, for setting this up.
[19:09]  Samson Francis: Great session znet
[19:09]  Benjamin Noble: I'd be happy to do this again in a few months, Znetlady.
[19:09]  JimmyJet Fossett: Thanks Znet, an excellent SLBC session (as usual)
[19:09]  Sparkle Dale: Thanks Ben and Znet, was very interesting.
[19:09]  You: It was great - thanks for the fascinataing discussion!
[19:09]  Samson Francis: Cudos for our host this evening
[19:09]  You: Thanks to Edleman for the space.

July 13, 2007

Comments

[JimmyJet Fossett]

An outstanding, well attended event, with excellent questions and points submitted to and addressed by the presenter.

Thanks to Znetlady Isbell for organizing the Q&A, and Edelman for hosting.

An event photoset may be viewed at http://flickr.com/photos/seesaw8/sets/72157600794744948/

[Linda]

Thanks so much for providing the photography, JimmyJet, and for posting a link to them here.

So glad you were able to make the event - and I agree it was a great discussion - the kind that left you wanting more. :-) Thanks for your contributions to the conversation as well.

[armand rousso]

Congratulations for this information. Armand Rousso

[Gary Goldhammer]

Glad the space worked for everyone and congrats on a great event! Wish I could have been there (technical difficulties at The Fish Market in Irvine, CA -- next time I'm going to Starbucks) :-)

[komuso tokugawa]

Excellent event and outcome. Tyvm for organising!

[SLJustice]

Dedicated to virtual freedoms.

http://slcongress.com

SLJustice